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but we can't move beyond the debt ceiling issue. i knew that would be a stopper, a game stopper. so we have to address that. now, the conditions exist that there can be a grand compromise that will move the economy forward or we can just go into free fall. for example, the last negotiation on the debt ceiling, well, the president, i thought, gave more than he should have given, but nonetheless, he did that. now the onus is on the rps to come to the table. because, see, what has happened is, tax cuts are essentially -- tax increases are off the table. and we got revenue from that. not enough that we needed, but that's off the table. and that was a big issue for the republicans. >> danny, let's move on. let's talk about the possibility of a government shutdown. the president seemed to indicate that it was, first of all, the republicans' responsibility. that they were going to take the onus, the responsibility for this, and that it was potentially something that he was willing to allow happen, because he felt that most people will blame the republicans. if the government shuts down,
but we can't move beyond the debt ceiling issue. i knew that would be a stopper, a game stopper. so we have to address that. now, the conditions exist that there can be a grand compromise that will move the economy forward or we can just go into free fall. for example, the last negotiation on the debt ceiling, well, the president, i thought, gave more than he should have given, but nonetheless, he did that. now the onus is on the rps to come to the table. because, see, what has happened is, tax...
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he even challenged on the issue of the debt ceiling when he was in the senate. he said that he wouldn't raise the debt ceiling, and now he is saying that the obligation exists for that to take place right now. he also laid out what i think is going to define some of the next several weeks, which is the issue of gun control. we are expecting that the vice president would be providing his recommendations following his gun violence task force about a month to the day now after the newtown shootings. those recommendations were expected tomorrow. the vice president is sitting down, alex, with the president for what will be a late lunch after about a 51 minute news conference wrapping up to share those proposals and the president made clear that later this week he will then have a more full presentation on what he plans to pursue going forward. i think he had a pretty candid admission in that news conference as well as it relates to this issue of guns. one of the very hotly contested topics on that is whether or not to reinstate the assault weapons ban. the president
he even challenged on the issue of the debt ceiling when he was in the senate. he said that he wouldn't raise the debt ceiling, and now he is saying that the obligation exists for that to take place right now. he also laid out what i think is going to define some of the next several weeks, which is the issue of gun control. we are expecting that the vice president would be providing his recommendations following his gun violence task force about a month to the day now after the newtown...
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, the debt ceiling, maybe the war in afghanistan could have gotten a word today, or a question are we really getting out. in the d.c. media they're concerned about who is at what cocktail party and what everybody is wearing and how come you're not talking to more people. meanwhile, the president said he puts out invitations to the white house all the time. >> we invite folks from congress over here all the time. sometimes they don't choose to come, and that has to do with the fact that i think they don't consider the optics useful for them politically. >> ah-ha. you can't get your picture taken with the president. that's not good. boehner has turned down invitations to five state dinners a row. mitch mcconnell and three other republican senators turned down an invitation just to watch the movie "lincoln" over at the white house. it might have embarrassed them a little bit. these snubs are nothing new from republicans. it's dangerous politically for republicans to be seen at the white house. and there is always a tea party candidate close by, waiting to primary anybody who works with t
, the debt ceiling, maybe the war in afghanistan could have gotten a word today, or a question are we really getting out. in the d.c. media they're concerned about who is at what cocktail party and what everybody is wearing and how come you're not talking to more people. meanwhile, the president said he puts out invitations to the white house all the time. >> we invite folks from congress over here all the time. sometimes they don't choose to come, and that has to do with the fact that i...
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entitlement problem that we have got with to force him on this debt ceiling issue. i know it seems like we have seen this movie before, but i think this is going to make a fiscal cliff fight look small because republicans are angry about what happened last time, they're angry at their speaker. they believe he capitulated an the spending cut side, they're not willing to do that again, and many republicans are willing to take this right to default and the president is going to say that's irresponsible. >> our senior congressional correspondent dana bash is here. the republicans say the nice's debt is exploding the deficit spending is exploding and they have got to do something about it right now. >> and just as gloria was saying there are certainly a number of rank and file republicans who are willing to make good on the threat that if the president, if the white house and democrats here do not agree to couple every dollar that we increase the debt limit with a dollar of spending cuts that they're willing to default on the u.s.'s loan and taking it to the next level,
entitlement problem that we have got with to force him on this debt ceiling issue. i know it seems like we have seen this movie before, but i think this is going to make a fiscal cliff fight look small because republicans are angry about what happened last time, they're angry at their speaker. they believe he capitulated an the spending cut side, they're not willing to do that again, and many republicans are willing to take this right to default and the president is going to say that's...
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the debt ceiling increase was seen as a procedure and a very partisan vote then but not something you were reporting on for weeks and months like we have in 2011 then and now on the debt ceiling debate and, of course, what happened in 2011 was a loss to the nation's credit rating. there's big differences between 2006 and now. >> and also, to factor in with the differences you pointed out is how much the president has offered in negotiations. as far as cutting spending, not as if it's been a zero sum game from the white house regarding the nation's spending problem and an acknowledgment of that. >> one of the messages president obama is trying to get across today how much is cut in spending, whether it was in that 2011 debt ceiling agreement in the budget control act, whether it was also the revenue that was increased with the end of the fiscal cliff talks that we had right at the beginning of the new year, tamron. so, president obama said, look, we have really cut a lot of spending. there's more that he would like to be able to do but that it would be ludicrous to suggest there's no s
the debt ceiling increase was seen as a procedure and a very partisan vote then but not something you were reporting on for weeks and months like we have in 2011 then and now on the debt ceiling debate and, of course, what happened in 2011 was a loss to the nation's credit rating. there's big differences between 2006 and now. >> and also, to factor in with the differences you pointed out is how much the president has offered in negotiations. as far as cutting spending, not as if it's been...
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and i think he might, might have had significantly more leverage to deal with the debt ceiling issue then trying that. he didn't test it. just skeptical about how much he'll test it now in the face of a debt ceiling. i hope i'm wrong. i'm skeptical. >> the other big story this afternoon, vice president biden makes the formal recommendations to the president on gun control. what will it take to get meaningful action if that's possible? military man and gun control advocate joe sustek brings his perspective. [ male announcer ] house rule number 46. what's good for the pot... is even better for the cup. new single serve cafe collections from maxwell house. now available for use in the keurig k-cup brewer. always good to the last drop. is efficiently absorbed in small continuous amounts. citracal slow release continuously releases calcium plus d with efficient absorption in one daily dose. citracal slow release. with efficient absorption in one daily dose. i've got two tickets to paradise!l set? pack your bags, we'll leave tonight. uhh, it's next month, actually... eddie continues singin
and i think he might, might have had significantly more leverage to deal with the debt ceiling issue then trying that. he didn't test it. just skeptical about how much he'll test it now in the face of a debt ceiling. i hope i'm wrong. i'm skeptical. >> the other big story this afternoon, vice president biden makes the formal recommendations to the president on gun control. what will it take to get meaningful action if that's possible? military man and gun control advocate joe sustek...
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ceiling issue. i know you have said you're not negotiating that. your administration has ruled out the various ideas that have been out there, the 14th amendment that just this morning house -- one of the house democratic leaders asked you to use the 14th amendment, and even said sometimes that's what it takes. he brought up the emancipation probleming clamation. he compared the debt ceiling to that. are you considering a plan b? if not, why not? >> well, chuck, the issue here is whether or not america pays its bills. we are not a deadbeat nation. so there's a very simple solution to this. congress authorizes us to pay our bills. if the house and the senate want to give me the authority so that they don't have to take these tough votes, if they want to put the responsibility on me to raise the debt ceiling, i'm happy to take it. mitch mcconnell had a proposal like that last year, and i'm happy to accept it, but if they want to keep this responsibility, then they need to go ahead and get it done. the
ceiling issue. i know you have said you're not negotiating that. your administration has ruled out the various ideas that have been out there, the 14th amendment that just this morning house -- one of the house democratic leaders asked you to use the 14th amendment, and even said sometimes that's what it takes. he brought up the emancipation probleming clamation. he compared the debt ceiling to that. are you considering a plan b? if not, why not? >> well, chuck, the issue here is whether...
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the previous debt ceiling standoff, one of the issues was when would the next debt ceiling be reached, annoy, remember the republicans -- and even harry reid suggested that they do this every six months, get a temporary extension and come back in six months. at one point the republicans were proposing three extensions, three votes before the next election. and the president, meeting with his own aides about this said that's it. i'm done. i'm not doing this. this is not how the constitution was meant -- was designed. our founding fathers did not envision a day when members of congress could hold the president hostage by not paying the bills they themselves had racked up. and as often happens in these situations, the cooler heads on his staff said, well, mr. president, we understand how you feel, but we may have to cut the -- no, i'm not going to do it. he was very firm because he believed it was not just affecting him but about preserving the status of the presidency for future presidents. and in the end one of the things he was most proud of in that deal was not giving in to that. but
the previous debt ceiling standoff, one of the issues was when would the next debt ceiling be reached, annoy, remember the republicans -- and even harry reid suggested that they do this every six months, get a temporary extension and come back in six months. at one point the republicans were proposing three extensions, three votes before the next election. and the president, meeting with his own aides about this said that's it. i'm done. i'm not doing this. this is not how the constitution was...
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how do you think lincoln would handle gun control or the debt ceiling or a whole range of other issues that the current president -- >> look, martin, du h, lincoln would agree with me on everything. this is the unmistakable mandate of history. we all know this. >> right. thank you very much. thomas frank, thank you. >>> next, the president may be one step closer to getting his man. but first, sue herera has the cnbc market wrap. good afternoon. >> good to see you, martin. let's check in on how wall street finished today's trading session. it was a volatile trading day and the dow jones managed to gain 27 points. the s&p gained just under 2 points on the trading session. and the nasdaq with a drag from face boonk to the downside finished down 6.75 points. that's it from cnbc. we are first in business worldwide. martin is back after a quick break. [ male announcer ] this is joe woods' first day of work. and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaura
how do you think lincoln would handle gun control or the debt ceiling or a whole range of other issues that the current president -- >> look, martin, du h, lincoln would agree with me on everything. this is the unmistakable mandate of history. we all know this. >> right. thank you very much. thomas frank, thank you. >>> next, the president may be one step closer to getting his man. but first, sue herera has the cnbc market wrap. good afternoon. >> good to see you,...
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and then, of course, there is a debt ceiling vote. now you hear a lot of republicans making noises about backing down from the debt ceiling fight. it is interesting by the way, i know we're not here to talk about that. it is interesting how the conventional wisdom has shifted on that. >> jennifer: quickly too. >> so quickly. just another sign of the shifting sands. it all hinges on how public opinion turns. and you know, is the president going to go out on the stump? is he going to go out and barnstorm the country for his proposals? how much political capital is he going to put into it? if he really builds up public support for the proposals and public support grows and if they feel pressure, he'll bring a vote. >> >> jennifer: just to take you back to that -- not the fiscal cliff, the debt ceiling issue that the republicans do seem to be going soft on, i do think one of the reasons why they went so soft is because major traditionally republican lobbying groups were advocating like the chamber of commerce came out strongly saying this
and then, of course, there is a debt ceiling vote. now you hear a lot of republicans making noises about backing down from the debt ceiling fight. it is interesting by the way, i know we're not here to talk about that. it is interesting how the conventional wisdom has shifted on that. >> jennifer: quickly too. >> so quickly. just another sign of the shifting sands. it all hinges on how public opinion turns. and you know, is the president going to go out on the stump? is he going to...
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. >> the president won't back down on the debt ceiling or on gun safety. >> the pressing issue of gun reform. >> exactly one month after the tragedy at sandy hook. >> if there is a step we can take that will save even one child we should take that step. >> gun violence continues to wreak its deadly toll each day. >> this is a moment to act. >> congress is incapable of passing an assault weapon ban. >> everybody is totally upset by it. >> what makes sense? what works? >> this is a moment to act. >> this is a promise to turn the conversation into actions. >> if there is a step we can take that will save even one child, we should take that step. >> the lecturer in chief returns to the east room of the white house today to explain something to congressional republicans that previous presidents have not had to explain to congress. >> i want to be clear about this. the debt ceiling is not a question of authorizing more spending. raising the debt ceiling does not authorize more spending. it simply allows the country to pay for spending that congress has already committed to. these are bills
. >> the president won't back down on the debt ceiling or on gun safety. >> the pressing issue of gun reform. >> exactly one month after the tragedy at sandy hook. >> if there is a step we can take that will save even one child we should take that step. >> gun violence continues to wreak its deadly toll each day. >> this is a moment to act. >> congress is incapable of passing an assault weapon ban. >> everybody is totally upset by it. >>...
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you have the debt ceiling issue. all of those are in the mix right now because they are all coming to a head at the same time. we are going to need to deal with all of them. can't we be responsible? can't we work collaboratively on this? if we can -- hearing from the white house that, you know, you go figure it out. it is not my problem. i didn't have anything to do with this. that's not the way to go. >> let me ask you about your job as the head of the republican campaign committee. will you support all incumbent house republicans no matter what under all circumstances? or -- is your job to eliminate primary opposition? >> you know, i love how you -- you know, we try to talk in absolutes here. we are a member of organization that supports republicans and republican members of the house. here's when we do and we go out and recruit. i think, you know the voters want to check and balance in washington. we are going to offer a positive alternative. great candidates. we now -- second biggest majority since world war ii c
you have the debt ceiling issue. all of those are in the mix right now because they are all coming to a head at the same time. we are going to need to deal with all of them. can't we be responsible? can't we work collaboratively on this? if we can -- hearing from the white house that, you know, you go figure it out. it is not my problem. i didn't have anything to do with this. that's not the way to go. >> let me ask you about your job as the head of the republican campaign committee. will...
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the white house held a firm line on saying we're not going to negotiate at all on this debt ceiling, and it worked. do you think this is a lesson that may carry for four years, when they see themselves posturing this way rather than what they have done on other issues? do you think this might be contagious within the white house? >> remember bill clinton and what the definition of is, is. with barack obama it's sort of what the definition of negotiation is. they will deal with the debt ceiling, and that's when you will have very active negotiations over the budget. what the house has effectively done is put this on a similar path, a similar timetable as these other negotiations and the president may be able to say look, the debt ceiling is going to have to be raised regardless but house members can say well that's fine, but this is what we're demanding in terms of cuts. so maybe they are not linked except for the calendar, but at least in the minds of the republicans they certainly are linked. >> michael: yeah, i couldn't agree with that more. and that's a really great take on it. on
the white house held a firm line on saying we're not going to negotiate at all on this debt ceiling, and it worked. do you think this is a lesson that may carry for four years, when they see themselves posturing this way rather than what they have done on other issues? do you think this might be contagious within the white house? >> remember bill clinton and what the definition of is, is. with barack obama it's sort of what the definition of negotiation is. they will deal with the debt...
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debt ceiling is not a question of authorizing more spending. the issue here is whether or not america pays its bills. raising the debt ceiling does not authorize us to spend more. because this is about paying your bills. >> i do hope speaker boehner was listening. joining us in the studio is jonathan capehart from "the washington post" and in los angeles democratic strategist and nyu professor bob shrum. welcome to you both. professor shrum, we reached the debt ceiling two weeks ago today. the treasury department is giving us a few weeks of maneuvering room before we begin to default. and yet you have people like the heritage foundation saying today, default is not at issue. how many conservatives truly believe their tactics pose no risk whatsoever to the economy, particularly given what happened the last time they took the debt ceiling hostage? >> look, what heritage put out today is drivel. a transparent attempt -- >> drivel, this is the considered view of an important organization. >> yeah, whose president is jim demint. i don't take it all
debt ceiling is not a question of authorizing more spending. the issue here is whether or not america pays its bills. raising the debt ceiling does not authorize us to spend more. because this is about paying your bills. >> i do hope speaker boehner was listening. joining us in the studio is jonathan capehart from "the washington post" and in los angeles democratic strategist and nyu professor bob shrum. welcome to you both. professor shrum, we reached the debt ceiling two weeks...
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we know about the confirmation hearing issues and then the fiscal, the debt ceiling which is fast approaching as well. >> definitely that dance card is getting filled up pretty quickly so early in the year and he hasn't even been inaugurated. also in that article, senator marco rubio preparing his own version of the d.r.e.a.m. act. he discussed how republicans could face some pushback from latinos because of their stance on immigration reform. he said this, quote. we are going to have a struggle speaking to a whole segment of the population about our principles of limited government and free enterprise if they think we don't want them here, alluding to those who might benefit from the d.r.e.a.m. act. so republicans have their own pr campaign to conduct with latinos on immigration reform, but how is the president going to combat republicans who want to see a more piece meal approach as we move forward here? >> reporter: i think we've seen the way the president has handled other recent challenges from his republican opposition when you consider just the fiscal cliff hanger as it were with campa
we know about the confirmation hearing issues and then the fiscal, the debt ceiling which is fast approaching as well. >> definitely that dance card is getting filled up pretty quickly so early in the year and he hasn't even been inaugurated. also in that article, senator marco rubio preparing his own version of the d.r.e.a.m. act. he discussed how republicans could face some pushback from latinos because of their stance on immigration reform. he said this, quote. we are going to have a...
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ceiling. the house of representatives is back in session today, too, and republicans are just as adamant, insisting they won't raise the debt limit, unless the president goes along with spending cuts. let's go live to cnn white house correspondent brianna keilar. >> reporter: president obama stating very clearly today that he will not negotiate deficit reduction, tax increases and spending cuts attached to the debt ceiling. this of course does follow that bruising battle the year before last, where he did negotiate on the issue, and the u.s. nearly went to the brink of default. he said that congress has to pay the bills that it's already racked up. >> you don't go out to dinner and then, you know, eat all you want and then leave without paying the check. and if you do, you're breaking the law. and congress should think about it the same way that the american people do. you don't -- now, if congress want, to have a debate about maybe we shouldn't go out to dinner next time, maybe we should go t
ceiling. the house of representatives is back in session today, too, and republicans are just as adamant, insisting they won't raise the debt limit, unless the president goes along with spending cuts. let's go live to cnn white house correspondent brianna keilar. >> reporter: president obama stating very clearly today that he will not negotiate deficit reduction, tax increases and spending cuts attached to the debt ceiling. this of course does follow that bruising battle the year before...
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and willing to increase the debt ceiling. however, i think what is going to be a problem from the white house's perspective is that three months. i was speaking with a senior administration official a little earlier today and he sort of reiterated the fact that the president is opposed to this idea of increasing the debt ceiling in these small increments because it creates crises every couple of months. so that could be a potential problem moving forward, but what is significant i think in the eyes of the white house is house speaker john boehner has sort of abandoned this idea to increase the debt ceiling and tie it to dollar to dollar spending cuts. so from their perspective that represents some movement. i have been talking to my republican sources who say they feel confident that this plan to increase the debt ceiling and then to also sort of force congress' hand on the budget in three months is something that could get through both houses. we'll have to see. i expect that all of this debating will sort of be on pause on
and willing to increase the debt ceiling. however, i think what is going to be a problem from the white house's perspective is that three months. i was speaking with a senior administration official a little earlier today and he sort of reiterated the fact that the president is opposed to this idea of increasing the debt ceiling in these small increments because it creates crises every couple of months. so that could be a potential problem moving forward, but what is significant i think in the...
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and so you have this fight over the debt ceiling, but it is about bigger issues. the debt ceiling has nothing to do with immigration reform, nothing to do with the proposals on gun control, nothing to do with anything else the president might want to do in his second term, but guess what, it does affect the climate in washington. and the fact that he does not have a more trusting, even a private back channel relationship with the key republican leaders is one of the -- one of the reasons and they had responsibility too, i'm not putting it all on the president it a washington crisis if you will, a trust deficit. it is one of the reasons -- >> mitch mcconnell talking. >> so you have to have the vice president go to the senate republican leader, two guys -- they're not best of friends. trust me. i know them both. they're not best of friends. they do trust each other. mitch mcconnell knows if joe biden gives him his word, it is good. we need more of that in washington, not less. >> let me ask you, since i have you, something else the president mentioned, asked, of cou
and so you have this fight over the debt ceiling, but it is about bigger issues. the debt ceiling has nothing to do with immigration reform, nothing to do with the proposals on gun control, nothing to do with anything else the president might want to do in his second term, but guess what, it does affect the climate in washington. and the fact that he does not have a more trusting, even a private back channel relationship with the key republican leaders is one of the -- one of the reasons and...
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the debt ceiling is a dangerous game. i think they recognize that politically. they'll push -- the question is how -- how do they push on the debt ceiling? do they say, look, we'll give you a short-term extension of the debt ceiling for a certain amount of spending cuts, or we'll give you a long-term extension like you want for even more spending cuts. can they force entitlement reform around medicare, for instance, even some of the -- in their view -- more limited things that the president wants to do around means testing and age and indexing to try to attach that to a debt-limit deal. do they move beyond the debt limit, try to get to the continuing resolutions and those kinds of things? they recognize that this is the only area of leverage that they have, but they want to be careful about it. >> so chuck todd, how does the white house deal with that supposed leverage? >> well, first i think the republicans are hoping that they have a manti te'o defense, that somehow it was all a hoax and maybe the election was a hoax and they can go back and redo everything. n
the debt ceiling is a dangerous game. i think they recognize that politically. they'll push -- the question is how -- how do they push on the debt ceiling? do they say, look, we'll give you a short-term extension of the debt ceiling for a certain amount of spending cuts, or we'll give you a long-term extension like you want for even more spending cuts. can they force entitlement reform around medicare, for instance, even some of the -- in their view -- more limited things that the president...
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to have a hard time with the debt ceiling. that 27 could go to 12. >> there is usually somewhere lower to go. thank you very much, john avalon. >>> all right, well "outfront" next, we are learning new details about the american hostages in algeria. the family of one hostage spoke with cnn's david mattingly today. he's been chasing that down and he is going to be "outfront" in a moment. and more trouble for boeing. the electric problem of the dreamliner leading more countries to ground planes from america's biggest company. about health care...se i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks. so i'm doing fine... but she's still going to give me a heart attack. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. diarrhea, gas, bloating? yes! one phillips' colon health probiotic cap each day helps defend against these digestive
to have a hard time with the debt ceiling. that 27 could go to 12. >> there is usually somewhere lower to go. thank you very much, john avalon. >>> all right, well "outfront" next, we are learning new details about the american hostages in algeria. the family of one hostage spoke with cnn's david mattingly today. he's been chasing that down and he is going to be "outfront" in a moment. and more trouble for boeing. the electric problem of the dreamliner leading...
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the idea the republicans have said they will go along with the three-month extension on the debt ceiling, increase? are you going to be-- does that help? >> well, it's helpful that they have now dropped their demand, that the only way they're going to pay the country's billes, they themselves racked up, would be to extract some concessions. we've got to never again have this threat to the global economy and our economy because congress may not pay its bills. now, three months is no way to run an economy or railroad or anything else so that's not ideal. so i think it's a significant moment that the republican party now has moved off their position that the only way they're going to pay their bills is if they ge the correct kind of concessions. now, where does that leave us? i think we would be better served to go back to regular order in congress so we're notica reaping crisis to crisis; congress ought to work together and come up with a long-term fiscal plan >> but you see this as a good sign? >> i think they're no longer saying the only way we pay our bills is to have huge cuts in thing
the idea the republicans have said they will go along with the three-month extension on the debt ceiling, increase? are you going to be-- does that help? >> well, it's helpful that they have now dropped their demand, that the only way they're going to pay the country's billes, they themselves racked up, would be to extract some concessions. we've got to never again have this threat to the global economy and our economy because congress may not pay its bills. now, three months is no way to...
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to take you back not to the fiscal cliff but the debt ceiling issues that the republicans do seem to be going soft on. i do think one of the reasons why they went soft was because traditionally republican lobbying groups were coming out. i wonder if there are traditionally republican groups like law enforcement organizations, the police associations who might tend to be conservative, if they came out strong and spoke if the faith community came out strong and spoke, they may shake a little bit. let's talk about senator cruise thinks is going to happen as a result of the gun debate. >> i think the consequence i think he's going to pay a serious political price. and i think the price that's going to be paid on this is going to manifest in senate races in 2014. >> jennifer: so your take on that. he's flipping that argument on its head. he thinks it will benefits republicans rather than cause them to lose seats. >> no, i don't see that. but the democrats and the obama organizations, they really have to get out the vote for 2014 it has to be impressed on democratic and progressive voters
to take you back not to the fiscal cliff but the debt ceiling issues that the republicans do seem to be going soft on. i do think one of the reasons why they went soft was because traditionally republican lobbying groups were coming out. i wonder if there are traditionally republican groups like law enforcement organizations, the police associations who might tend to be conservative, if they came out strong and spoke if the faith community came out strong and spoke, they may shake a little bit....